NCIX FORUMS - 2400 Power On hours? - Seagate Barracuda 3TB 7200RPM SATA3 64MB...

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Subject: 2400 Power On hours?
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gromacs

Apr 29, 2012 09:50 PM

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One item in the Barracuda's data sheet related to reliability caught our eye. Although the document lists NAS and desktop RAID applications as best-fit applications for Seagate's offering, the specified 2400-hour power-on rating indicates that this drive was not designed for environments requiring 24/7 availability. If that were the case, its specification should say 8760 hours. The 2400-hour specification, which represents only 100 days of continuous operation, assumes that drives are used eight hours per day, five days per week. This means that the drives should take full advantage of any available power-saving technologies that shut down the spindle motor during idle times. This applies equally to desktops and storage servers. Should you decide to use Barracuda drives in a NAS device, for instance, don’t forget to configure its power management appropriately.

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/4tb-3tb-hdd,3183-4.html
Would someone please explain why Seagate would say/do this to their drive

Topic URL: http://forums.ncix.com/forums/topic.php?id=2502521

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Lsi

Apr 30, 2012 01:54 AM

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To create a rationale to sell their enterprise-class drive lines in a wider variety of markets (a.k.a. to plant the seeds of doubt that might sway buyers with deeper pockets to justify buying the higher end product despite it being overkill or borderline innappropriate) ;-)

I use the term "borderline inappropriate" when enterprise drives are used in environment with mainstream requirements as TLER in enterprise drives basically reduces the potential of ideal ECC recovery of a damaged sector. TLER it is not designed to maximize data recovery potential but rather to optimize performance and "decisiveness" during error condition recovery in hardware RAIDs. It is designed with the assumption that data redundancy is present and that error recovery is being offloaded to the array controller, so recovering from the latency of an error condition is a greater priority than recovery of the sector's data. This is clearly not the case in a non-redundant NAS configuration or even in a RAID-0 stripe.

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Piezo™

Apr 30, 2012 03:14 AM

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I think what they are listing is the value they have used for calculating the AFR (Annualized Failure Rate) and MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure), not their own assumption of how long the drive will last.

(Another pdf from them) http://www.seagate.com/files/staticfiles/support/docs/100636864b.pdf

AFR and MTBF specifications are based on the following assumptions for desktop personal computer environments:

So I believe they are just saying that 2400 is the value they decided to use in order to calculate AFR, not that the drive itself is only rated for 2400 per year.

The Load/Unload cycle count (300,000) is the same as other drives so I don't think it would be rated for less... but maybe I'm way off base here.

This message was modified by the poster at 04 30, 2012 03:21 AM

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Babaghan

Apr 30, 2012 07:14 AM

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Quote: (Lsi @ Apr 30 2012, 01:54 AM)

mainstream requirements as TLER in enterprise drives basically reduces the potential of ideal ECC recovery of a damaged sector.

Clearly Lsi doesn't work the fry station at his local McDonalds

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gromacs

Apr 30, 2012 09:11 AM

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Quote: (Babaghan @ Apr 30 2012, 07:14 AM)

A vendor-quoted MTBF implies that half the drives in a large population will fail within that time of operation.[2] For example, a common specification for PATA and SATA drives may be 300,000 MTBF, implying that in a 600,000 drive sample, one drive failure may occur per hour if failures were evenly distributed, translating to 8760 drive failures per year or a theoretical 1.46% annualized failure rate.[2]
Seagate estimates the MTBF for a drive as the number of power-on hours per year divided by the first year AFR.[3] The AFR for a drive is derived from time-to-fail data from a reliability-demonstration test (RDT).[3]
Google's 2007 study found that actual AFRs for individual drives ranged from 1.7% for first year drives to over 8.6% for three-year old drives.[4]

I still don't quite understand what AFR is and what the difference is between it an MTBF. Pezio if I understand correctly, basically you're saying that this spec means Seagate tested the drives for 2400 hours to collect data and calculate the MTBF?

Thanks for the review lesson Lsi, lol

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Piezo™

Apr 30, 2012 12:13 PM

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Yea that's what I think, Seagate used 2400 hours as part of the calculation, but the actual power-on rating of the drive is much more.

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Lsi

Apr 30, 2012 04:33 PM

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I believe AFR is real world return / RMA's to a manufacturer of a given product, although some drives are never returned after failure (some companies have physical destruction policies etc) so these numbers are always somewhat optimistic. MTBF specs are controlled conditions testing (by the manufacturer) of many drives simultaneously, most likely in a 24-7 environment, representing reliability under ideal conditions. They are likely tested in their intended role to produce these MTBF figures, which on a "non 24-7" type drive would likely mean light load conditions and possibly lower ambient temperatures; a 24-7 enterprise-class product would likely be tested under continuous load (or at least a significantly higher duty cycle) and very likely at 40 degrees or higher ambient conditions.

As an aside, the stop-start cycles rating is usually based on the actuator design of a mechanical drive and this product line actually uses two different ones for lower and higher end models. The higher end ones are dual actuator like enterprise drives, similar to what WD has been using in the 64MB cache Blacks for a couple years now.

Choosing a drive based on these specs is a bit like choosing a truck for towing. Both a Ranger and an F-350 have overlapping load ranges that they both can support, but one was designed to handle a lot more than what you're asking of it in that overlapping range. The Ranger can probably handle towing its max ratings under ideal conditions regularly but will most likely fail prematurely relative to the F-350 under the same conditions. Determining what you honestly need and what level of engineering you're willing to pay for is the ultimate question. There is legitimate differences, but are they actually worth paying for to you?

Babaghan, I did actually work at a Mac's store back when I was chasing pro sports...as you probably imagined, it was one of the more analytical positions on the field ;)

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DaleF

Apr 30, 2012 05:41 PM

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I wonder why these are rated lower than the older 3TB Barracuda XTs. Some people seemed to think they were the same drives (though I found that a little hard to believe given that other people have been saying these aren't 5 platter drives).

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Lsi

May 01, 2012 01:58 PM

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They definitely aren't the same drives as these higher capacity Barracuda mainstream models from this new line now have dual stage actuators, which the XT never had. This is a first for non-enterprise drives from Seagate.

My guess re: the old Barracuda XT's is again that it gives marketing reasoning to pushing people towards the higher end product lines vs the mainstream ones for any role other than use in a mainstream pc. It's probably not needed, but it plants those marketing "seeds of doubt" to sway some into the higher end (higher margin) products.

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NCIX Forum Messages

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Messages about Seagate Barracuda 3TB 7200RPM SATA3 64MB Cache 3.5in Internal Hard Drive

1 year warranty kind of kills this (Hotshot- May 12, 13, 30 Replies)

Are these all CC4H now? (wlachan- May 11, 13, 12 Replies)

Received drive with FW CC24 and it slow... should (Coach_Z- Mar 08, 13, 26 Replies)

Seagate warranty is a waste of time (Aaron_B- Feb 12, 13, 7 Replies)

Any issue with using four of these hard drives in (burn unit- Nov 26, 12, 2 Replies)

Could this be added to a RAID of ST30000651AS? (JohnAs- Nov 26, 12, 1 Replies)

My Seagate 3TB has a two year warranty. (Eric_G- Nov 22, 12, 9 Replies)

Drive keeps powering down (Matthew_v- Oct 26, 12, 5 Replies)

Caution: Different PNs circulating for this model (pete_d- Oct 25, 12, 1 Replies)

Seagate Barracuda 3TB vs WD Green 3TB (Makall- Sep 11, 12, 15 Replies)

data error cyclic redundancy check (francois_p- Jun 01, 12, 12 Replies)

So IS this a decent buy at 150 or what? (Ian_K- May 31, 12, 7 Replies)

Only Showing 750 gigs in windows (Bobby_B- May 24, 12, 2 Replies)

Is Seagate Barracuda 3TB ok for Raid 5 in a Hardw (burn unit- May 20, 12, 1 Replies)

Detected in Windows but not in Bios... (Gary_L- May 10, 12, 12 Replies)

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