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| Subject: 22 kids stabbed in China |
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Amokläufer
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Dec 14, 2012 01:05 PM |
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Yoinkerman
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Dec 14, 2012 01:10 PM |
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Dec 14, 2012 01:12 PM |
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Dec 14, 2012 01:17 PM |
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Dec 14, 2012 01:25 PM |
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TKSS
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Dec 14, 2012 01:27 PM |
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Amokläufer
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Dec 14, 2012 01:29 PM |
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Dec 14, 2012 02:33 PM |
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Dec 14, 2012 02:51 PM |
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Dec 14, 2012 03:16 PM |
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d2frm
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Dec 14, 2012 08:13 PM |
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Dec 14, 2012 08:24 PM |
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Quote: (d2frm @ Dec 14 2012, 08:13 PM)
You need to suffer multiple stabs with a knife to die.
Only if your attacker is completely retarded and doesn't know where major arteries are. Granted, a huge percentage of people, including virtually all of them that want to kill random people for no reason, are completely retarded, so I guess you have a point.
Quote: (d2frm @ Dec 14 2012, 08:13 PM)
All it takes for an assailant to kill you with a gun - one bullet.
All it takes for me to defend myself against an assailant with a gun is a gun of my own. Except that I've been disarmed by my government and am not allowed to carry my legally-owned firearms. Criminals can, though, with few repercussions.
All that it takes to defend yourself against an assailant with a knife is superior strength, agility, and preferably combat training. Since most criminal assailants are young men in their prime, this puts virtually all of their victims at a disadvantage. Banning guns means that you want assailants to have the upper hand in violence.
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d2frm
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Dec 14, 2012 09:34 PM |
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Dec 14, 2012 11:14 PM |
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Dec 14, 2012 11:44 PM |
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Dec 15, 2012 10:40 AM |
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Dec 15, 2012 10:45 AM |
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Somebody69
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Dec 15, 2012 01:56 PM |
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You can't put the gun cat back in the bag, so to speak. There are what, 300 million guns in the US? That's 1 per person, including children, although apparently volunteer teacher assistants require multiple guns to feel safe, so who knows the actual penetration. But you ban gun ownership completely and make it a felony to look at a gun...now what? There are about, um, what percent of people voted to return to 1950 again? Something like 48%? Yeah, 48% of Americans would give up their own children before giving up their guns. So you have millions of supposedly illegal, supposedly non-existent (hey, it's America, where you deny everything, including your son's obvious need for therapy) guns sitting around. What is to stop criminals getting their hands on said guns? I mean, this ****-up was too young to own a gun in Connecticut, but got his hands on at least 3. I don't believe that there are enough cases of legitimate self defense to actually justify gun ownership, but it's obvious that you also can't say that restricting gun ownership does any amount of good, because you just can't control something on such a large scale.
Fact is, you can't reactively prevent these sort of events (duh). Maybe this could have been proactively prevented by realizing this kid obviously had issues. Same with the VT massacre or Columbine. Kids with obvious issues that were never properly addressed. I don't think it's fair to say that it's only obvious in retrospect, especially after Columbine. Americans love to push things under the rug. It's kind of ironic that a culture that loves to diagnose and medicate every other kid for "ADHD" doesn't recognize these very disturbed kids (although I believe one of the Columbine shooters was on antidepressants, also known to cause homicidal thoughts! excellent treatment). Gun control is the "easy" thing to jump at, but while I can't say I support widespread gun ownership, I can't see "control" doing anything to remedy the epidemic of shootings.
dunno if there really is an answer, but this pattern of reactive, kneejerk legislation never works. 
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Amokläufer
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Dec 15, 2012 05:22 PM |
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Sir Nerdalot
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Dec 15, 2012 06:06 PM |
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Q-Ball 7
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Dec 16, 2012 04:31 AM |
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Dec 16, 2012 07:33 AM |
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Quote: (Sir Nerdalot @ Dec 15 2012, 06:06 PM)
You ever thought of running? If 20 people ran in different directions how many of them would survive against one "assailant with a knife is superior strength, agility, and preferably combat training" versus a guy with an automatic rifle?
Running is great if all you care about is yourself... and if you're physically able to run. What if you were out at the mall with your grandma who has to use a walker to get around? You going to run and leave her to die? What about all the other elderly people with canes or walkers? Yeah, screw them if they can't run away... it's their own fault, right? At least YOU'RE probably going to be safe. Personally, I'd rather to be able to save as many people as possible, not just myself, by pulling out my handgun and dropping the f***er where he stands.
Believe it or not, concealed carry is legal in Canada -- *if* you can get the right permit (ATC-3) issued, which is damned near impossible because the bureaucrats in charge of issuing them simply refuse to.
I jumped through all the hoops to legally own handguns, including the licensing, registration and Authorization to Transport. My eligibility to continue owning my firearms is checked EVERY SINGLE DAY by the RCMP via their Continuous Eligibility Program. I'm a certified Black Badge holder, meaning I took extra training to learn how to be safe when drawing a loaded handgun from a holster and to continue to be safe while LITERALLY running around with a loaded gun, kicking down doors, and shooting around obstacles (the Black Badge certification is to be able to compete in an action shooting sport called IPSC). The safety and accuracy requirements to get a Black Badge exceed the requirements for a police officer to qualify with their sidearm -- the typical police officer can't shoot to Black Badge standards! I practice pretty much every week (I've shot over 15,000 rounds through my 9mm handgun alone this year). Yet with all of these permits, licenses, registration, and extra training I've been through (and continue to go through), I'm still considered more of a threat than the gangbangers who buy an illegal handgun and never practice with it and carry it around wherever they go. (The only training I do not have, that I both agree should be mandatory to carry concealed and would be happy to take, is Use Of Force training... which gangbangers et al also do not take, BTW.)
The sum of this story -- laws only affect the law-abiding. It's sad when a law-abiding citizen jumps through all of the hoops to remain within the law, and at the end of the day has fewer privileges than the criminals.
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DJZ
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Dec 16, 2012 08:30 AM |
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Alter3d Reality
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Dec 16, 2012 08:57 AM |
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Quote: (DJZ @ Dec 16 2012, 08:30 AM)
I'd refuse to issue you an ATC-3 too on the basis that you seem so intent on "drop ping the f***er where he stands". It bothers me that trigger happy folks like to think of themselves as "law-abiding citizen".
First of all, the amount of force I'd use would depend on the situation. If it's a guy with a knife and I had a gun, I'd try to get him to stop simply by presenting my firearm (e.g. http://www.abc4.com/content/about_4/bios/story/conceal-and-carry-stabbing-salt-lake-city-smiths/NDNrL1gxeE2rsRhrWCM9dQ.cspx). If it's someone standing there with a gun mowing down innocents, you can bet that I'd drop him where he stands.
I think that you're conflating different issues here. I have no intent or desire to kill other people just for the sake of killing them. If the situation warrants it (i.e. clear and present danger to myself or others), I am willing to use the amount of force required to stop that threat, up to and including deadly force.
Quote: (DJZ @ Dec 16 2012, 08:30 AM)
I'd guess it's mostly the right, folks who are excited about killing anybody who would dare infringe on "The Law".
I believe that some crimes are worthy of death as a punishment, yes. However, in general the concept of "punishment" should be administered by the justice system, *if possible*.
However, in the current context it's more of a matter of self-defense. If someone is acting in a way that's an immediate, deadly threat to myself or others, then at a fundamental human rights level I should have the right to defend myself using an appropriate level of force, up to and including deadly force.... which is exactly what Canada's current laws say anyways. If some dude is shooting up a mall and I manage to get close enough to take him out with my pocket knife, deadly force can be legally justified. So what's the difference if I have a more effective tool with which to defend myself and others?
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Draaax
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Dec 16, 2012 10:15 AM |
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Yoinkerman
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Dec 16, 2012 10:24 AM |
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DJZ
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Dec 16, 2012 10:27 AM |
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Alter3d Reality
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Dec 16, 2012 10:46 AM |
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Quote: (Draaax @ Dec 16 2012, 10:15 AM)
There is a difference between justice and vengeance.
There's a difference between vengeance and survival/self-defense too.
If you were getting mauled by a grizzly bear and the only way you could get it to stop attacking you was to kill it, is that vengeance? Now swap out "grizzly bear" for "human" (regardless of whether or not he was shooting at you or beating you do death with a baseball bat). Is your answer the same? If not, then you're a hypocrite.
Quote: (Draaax @ Dec 16 2012, 10:15 AM)
I find it quite comical that there are all these "John McClane" types around who believe, and wish for, the opportunity to become a "hero" and save the day by blowing someone else away ... quite scary IMO.
Holy crap. Seriously.
Please point out the part of ANYTHING I've said that even IMPLIES "Man, I really wish someone would start shooting up a mall so that I can shoot them back. Yeah, I WANT bad things to happen so that I can rock around town shooting bad guys."
A concealed weapon is like any other last-ditch, emergency tool that you own. Do you WANT to have your tire blow out and have to use the spare in your trunk? Do you WANT to have to use your house insurance because your house burned down? Do you WANT to have to dig into your emergency food & water supplies because there's a natural disaster? Do you WANT to have to use a trauma kit because your kid cut half their finger off while trying to bake cookies? Of course not. No sane person sits around fervently wishing for bad things to happen. But as a rational human being, you can plan for and mitigate those bad things IF they happen by preparing the "tools" (equipment, training, services, etc) you need to deal with the situation as best as possible.
Of course, if you're the type of person who doesn't buy insurance, has no survival supplies stashed away, and doesn't even keep a first aid kit at home, then you're probably already living in an irrational dreamland and you just think I'm a paranoid freak. Best of luck to you during the next natural disaster.
Quote: (Draaax @ Dec 16 2012, 10:15 AM)
IMO there is a fine line between delusions of grandeur and mental illness.
I'm under no illusion that concealed carry turns people into Superman. All it does is level the playing field between the good guys and bad guys so that you at least have a fighting chance.
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Dec 16, 2012 10:49 AM |
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Dec 16, 2012 12:04 PM |
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