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LET'S TALK ABOUT THE GTX 1080 TI...
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let's talk about the GTX 1080 Ti Page 2

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Mr. Friendly™ Mr. Friendly™ Mar 11, 2017 06:49 PM Reply | Bookmark
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indeed rj, but considering the amount of money that can be involved for very little performance gain (ie. SLi vs Tri-SLi), I can't help but think of the saying, 'a fool and his money are soon parted'.

I get it though, and don't begrudge you the fun just because I couldn't ever afford such a setup.

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rjb64 Mar 11, 2017 07:15 PM Reply | Bookmark
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^^^ Yeah the Tri SLi goodness was me just having some fun running benchmarks......Tri SLi was GTX 280's....then Tri SLi GTX 580 vanillas..back to SLi 580 Ultras.....then went to 680 Classy SLi and finally 780Ti SLi...(Fermi 480 SLi was in the mix as well)......I wound up skipping the 980's all together as the 780Ti's (SLi) on my RIVE with 3930k running at 4.8 Ghz was more than enough for 1440p gaming....unfortunately the 3G VRAM is beginning to be a choke point....found that especially true running ROTTR....eats up both VRAM and RAM ...!!!

I'm in a bit of a pickle now as I really want SLi again..for a few reasons...first I just love HW  ...second a single card woth a Waterblock is heavy and can flex...with 2 Cards the SLi Terminal Block provides a ton of support....so yeah...reasoning tells me drop  $1K on a 1080Ti which is fine for 1440p....but the "non sensible" side says 1080 SLi ....OR 1080 Ti SLi ..BUT that would mean upgrading to 4K .......$$$$...OR ditch my old RIVE X79 gear and go with a new build....one thing with WC....the CPU Block....Fittings....SLi Terminal Block...Radiators..Fans..pump....reservoir.....are all recyclable.....

We'll see what I wind up doing here .....on the fence  BUT the 1080 Ti's are damn fine looking Cards and anyone that purchases 1 or 2 of em will defintely be able to skip the next series for sure   :fup:

This message was modified by the poster at 03 11, 2017 07:17 PM

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coachmcguirk Mar 12, 2017 12:42 AM Reply | Bookmark
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What's the eta looking like for the sc2 1080ti's?

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Hotshot Hotshot Vip Member Mar 12, 2017 10:54 AM Reply | Bookmark
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I read that and I did not even have to look at who wrote it to know it was you. I said it before and I will say it again: Bumping the resolution has only ever helped me get better graphics... Yes in a perfect world we would have photo-realistic graphics, but we don't live in that world.

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Coach_ Coach_ Vip Member Mar 12, 2017 11:48 AM Reply | Bookmark
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please compare 1440P to 4k

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Hotshot Hotshot Vip Member Mar 12, 2017 12:27 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Screen above is a 4x (2560x2112) taken on a 1440p (1952x1440 fullscreen) monitor and a 6x (3840x3168) taken on a 4k monitor (2928x2160).

Obvious improvements. I love using this as an example, as in theory this is the worse case scenario for resolution scaling (as its an console game designed to be run at 640x528, so its possible it was coded to use lower resolution textures when link is at that distance to save on FPS).

edit: Also that 4k screen was taking before (don't have my 4k tv connected to this PC at the moment), so it looks the colors are different for some reason.

This message was modified by the poster at 03 12, 2017 12:29 PM

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Hotshot Hotshot Vip Member Mar 12, 2017 12:34 PM Reply | Bookmark
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This image was deleted by Hotshot @03/12/2017

I have a4x vs a 6x (50% more internal pixels) ... both taken on a 4k tv. There is a difference, but its minor (hence why I suspect the aforementioned texture limit on this console game).

edit: I deleted it tho, ncix is doing some sort of image processing so some quality is lost thereby making them look very similar.

This message was modified by the poster at 03 12, 2017 12:36 PM

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Mr. Friendly™ Mr. Friendly™ Mar 12, 2017 01:15 PM Reply | Bookmark
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hahaha. the 1440, you can see the horses muscles...but at 4K, it looks air brushed. HAHAHA!!!

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Hotshot Hotshot Vip Member Mar 12, 2017 01:59 PM Reply | Bookmark
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No, the 4k is better all around. NCIX is just trolling us with their image upload.

Here is a proper screenshot that show obvious gains on the rug and links shield:
http://i.imgur.com/AZrnqFR.png

edit: And once again, I need to stress that this is link in the background (opening intro of twilight) and I wouldn't be surprised at all if the texture resolution is maxed out at 4x native in this game designed to be run at sub 720p (because from 1x all the way to 4x there is obvious gains, but after 4x you hit diminishing returns in this particular game/setup).

This message was modified by the poster at 03 12, 2017 02:07 PM

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Mr. Friendly™ Mr. Friendly™ Mar 12, 2017 02:17 PM Reply | Bookmark
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err...then use images from other games?

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Hotshot Hotshot Vip Member Mar 12, 2017 02:23 PM Reply | Bookmark
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I like using that game because I only change the internal resolution of the emulator as opposed to having to change the resolution of my computer. Either way, I think its stupid thing to talk about. Obviously 4k is better, jake has a vendetta against it because he wants better PQ so he takes his anger out on higher resolutions.

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jakeElwood Mar 13, 2017 04:12 AM Reply | Bookmark
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Hey Hotshot,



This is true of course, and i am glad you see what i am saying and not just a straight diss.

Higher resolutions on inferior panels and at the cost of PQ seems obviously dumb, but, its exactly what the manufacturers have been doing to us for 15yrs and we eat it all up.

Question about your horse:

Where is the fine detail information coming from? I am a photographer and have been up-scaling for 15years for large prints. You do not magically find fine detail by just up-scaling. All that detail in the backpack especially has to be there already. Are you sure this information was not already there and down scaled?

I mean the 640x528 vs 5120x4224. The difference is negligible between 1440p and 4k.(i would choose better lighting and textures at that point ;-). And i suspect the original data is there-about.



This message was modified by the poster at 03 13, 2017 04:18 AM

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Mr. Friendly™ Mr. Friendly™ Mar 13, 2017 06:31 AM Reply | Bookmark
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forgive my ignorance, but what is PQ?

and Elwood, Shot isn't saying use an inferior panel with higher resolution...he was just agreeing with me that as resolution goes up, all the other features don't need to be set as high.

I suspect as the pixel density drops, you may wish to start cranking up AA, AF, etc...but when it's on a smaller screen, it's not quite as important.

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Hotshot Hotshot Vip Member Mar 13, 2017 06:42 AM Reply | Bookmark
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Note: Here is the same image I uploaded on ncix, this one probably looks better: https://i.imgur.com/ZolZsiO.jpg
That is a 1x 2x, 4x and 6x. Even tho this is a 10 year old game designed to be run at 640x528, this game scales very well all the way up to 4x. While at 6x there are improvements in the higher resolution textures (like the helmet).

Quote: (jakeElwood @ Mar 13 2017, 04:12 AM)


Where is the fine detail information coming from? I am a photographer and have been up-scaling for 15years for large prints. You do not magically find fine detail by just up-scaling. All that detail in the backpack especially has to be there already. Are you sure this information was not already there and down scaled


The horse (epona) has textures. Higher resolution textures allow you to use higher resolutions. If you design that horse to look good at 640x528 when its taking up 50% of the screen height (about 250 pixels), then that horse will look just as good or better on a monitor with 4x the resolution when its at twice its normal distance (taking up about 125 pixels). This is the point you almost always seem to ignore. There is only so much 'detail' in the horse, but higher resolution monitor allows you to see that detail when the object is farther away. Some games (like obviously zelda in this case) will look much better for free just by increasing the resolution (1x to 4x) even tho that was obviously never intended.

Note: If I ever end up playing this game again and leaving that area I will take a screenshot of Link and his horse Epona. I suspect the horse is maxed out on texture detail at 6x but there is more to be gained on items like the shield.

Quote: (jakeElwood @ Mar 13 2017, 04:12 AM)


I mean the 640x528 vs 5120x4224. The difference is negligible between 1440p and 4k.(i would choose better lighting and textures at that point ;-). And i suspect the original data is there-abou


I do *not* have a 5120x4224 monitor. So even if I put that on a 4k monitor there is interpolation going on (in fact interpolation gets worse and worse the higher resolution I go, thereby making the PQ gains even more impressive). On top of that the first screen I took was on my 1440k monitor and I was not even in full screen. I just used it as an ultra quick fast example of drastic improvements by making a simple resolution change.

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Hotshot Hotshot Vip Member Mar 13, 2017 06:45 AM Reply | Bookmark
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Picture quality.

Quote: (Hotshot @ Mar 13 2017, 06:45 AM)

he was just agreeing with me that as resolution goes up, all the other features don't need to be set as high.


The first time I noticed this was in Riddick. I spent a good 30 minutes playing with lots of settings trying to get a good FPS. The moment I started increasing the resolution it blew my mind at how well the game ran and how good it looked. I went from a blurry low FPS game to a sharp higher FPS game just by lowering some of the settings and increasing the resolution (CRT days).

Both bumping the screen resolution and bumping the game settings will tend to have a diminishing return point. In the golden days of CRT monitors you could find this 'optimal' point in many games if you spent time testing.

This message was modified by the poster at 03 13, 2017 06:51 AM

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Mr. Friendly™ Mr. Friendly™ Mar 13, 2017 07:04 AM Reply | Bookmark
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hey Hotshot...the above shot, same game as the horse?

can you use a different game as an example?

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NaX NaX Moderator Mar 13, 2017 07:26 AM Reply | Bookmark
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try working with both cases in the picture; the case on the left is a nightmare to work with whereas the case on the right is easy to work with
yes it can be a hobby for some, but some degree of organization is, imo, a necessity

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Mr. Friendly™ Mr. Friendly™ Mar 13, 2017 07:41 AM Reply | Bookmark
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I agree with your assessment, NaX, however the messy case was never designed with cable management in mind while the tidy case likely was.

further to that, the tidy case is probably using a modular PSU, which cures half the problem of keeping a case tidy.

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Hotshot Hotshot Vip Member Mar 13, 2017 07:46 AM Reply | Bookmark
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Yes it was the same game (Zelda twilight princess). I am currently in a zone that I am the wolf. Only other game I have is f-zero gx. 1x vs 6x.

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Jack_L2 Mar 13, 2017 08:40 AM Reply | Bookmark
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There is no doubt that higher resolution seem to produce nicer looking pictures, but my question is which is more important: PQ or monitor quality?

I think the answer is both, and I also think that while higher resolutions might make the picture look better, the monitor`s color reproductions are as important. I will see completely different things as I view those pictures with a very-high quality (without super-high res) monitor vs some $200 monitor. To me higher resolutions is not addressing the root cause of the issue, but more like a band-aid to the real issue which is to have good quality color reproduction on a monitor.

Higher resolutions are extremely heavy on video cards, so we end up paying a lot more on video cards every a couple of years vs having a lower resolution monitors with higher image quality.

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Hotshot Hotshot Vip Member Mar 13, 2017 09:22 AM Reply | Bookmark
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Horse closer to camera in the screenshot above, thereby using a high texture.

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Mr. Friendly™ Mr. Friendly™ Mar 13, 2017 09:28 AM Reply | Bookmark
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hey Hotshot...can you throw in pictures with AA and AF on max for both resolutions?

and Jack you can't have PQ without a quality monitor...so yes, they go hand in hand.

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Hotshot Hotshot Vip Member Mar 13, 2017 09:38 AM Reply | Bookmark
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That is not true. Higher resolutions often can mean *BETTER* FPS then a lower resolution with insane quality settings and AA settings. Like I said, with both image quality and resolution you hit a point of diminishing return on each. The trick is to find the sweet spot (at least this was the trick in the CRT days, now with LCD you are stuck with only one resolution and can only play around with the settings).

In fact SSAA accomplishes AA by rending the scene at X amount of pixels. So 2SSAA is 2x the amount of pixels per dimensions 1920x1080 = 3840x2160 (basically rending at 4k), or with 4SSAA you would be 7680x4320 (basically 8k). It's the reason why SSAA produces the best quality possible, but also is by far the slowest and is not nearly as good of a choice compared to other options (like MSAA).

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Hotshot Hotshot Vip Member Mar 13, 2017 09:42 AM Reply | Bookmark
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Attached is 1x native vs 4x native on my 1440p full screen with 8x SSAA.

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Jack_L2 Mar 13, 2017 11:15 AM Reply | Bookmark
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Hotshot : But when you say in-game insane quality settings.. If you have an excellent PQ monitor, why would you even would have to mess with game quality settings? I will assume you simply wont need to. Am no monitor expert, but logic will prevail that higher PQ is better than higher resolutions and other in-game settings.

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Hotshot Hotshot Vip Member Mar 13, 2017 12:08 PM Reply | Bookmark
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An 'excellent PQ monitor' won't help you. If the graphics don't look good a $200 or a $2000 will both look bad. In fact a $200 TN monitor with a 720p picture of a nascar race will look more realistic than a $2000 IPS monitor hooked up to any racing game.

As for the GPU question: Each 'increase' in settings will add more work for the GPU.

So for example you might have 4 shadow modes:
Light shadows (-2 fps)
Medium Shadows (-5 fps)
High shadows (-10 fps)
Ultra shadows (-25 fps)

In this mock scenerio with shadows, it might be very hard to tell the difference between high and ultra shadows. A lot of the time with graphics settings you get to a point were going one setting higher does look better but it's very hard to tell the difference at the cost of lots of FPS. I used shadows in this example, but you can replace shadows with many things: Water reflection, view distance, particle count, special effects, etc. So a game in general will probably look better on 1080p than at 720 with higher settings (if you aim set both up with 100% same gear and aim to have stable 60 fps).

This really depends on the game tho and the settings. For example in the Zelda game above I tried a ~60 second test with a native 1x with 8 SSAA and 2x native with 2 MSAA, the result: The 2x looked much better and appeared to have better FPS (the 1x seemed to dip under 60 fps in my ultra quick unofficial test). So in this 'extreme' example I was able to get *better* PQ by increasing the resolution and got the same or better FPS.

This message was modified by the poster at 03 13, 2017 12:09 PM

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Jack_L2 Mar 13, 2017 12:27 PM Reply | Bookmark
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I think we are going around the same point. Who is assuming that graphics wont look good? I mean sure this is a factor, but the discussion here is that, assuming graphics are excellent to start with, what is better: having a better PQ monitor, or having higher resolutions with even more in-game graphics tweakings?

In your " look better on 1080p than at 720 with higher settings" example, would not that mean that the graphics were originally poor in quality?

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Hotshot Hotshot Vip Member Mar 13, 2017 12:58 PM Reply | Bookmark
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In a perfect world the graphics would look awesome and we would get better PQ at 720p then we get a 4k today. Sadly we don't live in that world. In the world we live in its often 'cheaper' to go higher resolution then bump up the graphics settings to the 'extreme' level which is in diminishing returns territory.

And yes, the graphics from a 2006 console game is poor. The fact such an old game can get such a huge bump with a minor change is why I like using it as an example.

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jakeElwood Mar 13, 2017 02:40 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Hey Nax,

Haha you took my word Neat literally.

Neat means Cool or fancy.

Yes our cases should be somewhat tidy, but that wasnt what i was saying.


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jakeElwood Mar 13, 2017 03:07 PM Reply | Bookmark
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Hey Jack

Hotshot and I are saying the same thing in different ways. His Nascar reference is exactly the same as my Formula one reference.

What Hotshot is showing us works the other way as well which is my point.

When you have to turn PQ settings down or off because your resolution is too high(4k) for your gcard, you are then going backwards.

When you take a game that doesnt have a lot of PQ settings, then, higher resolution will be better than low resolution. This is what Hotshot is showing us.

Most games we have, you can crank up all kinds of settings with no real PQ improvements but it ruins your FPS, this is what Hotshot is saying. (correct me if im using your name in vain Hotshot)

We could show examples of where lowering the resolution with higher PQ settings would look a lot better than 4k with those PQ settings turned off. Which was what i was saying.

We are both right, just doing our best to confuse you Jack  




This message was modified by the poster at 03 13, 2017 03:12 PM

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